The Gaming Den

K wrote:

Maxus wrote:

Koumei wrote:I've found that it doesn't need a boost. I've also found that, barring the higher levels, it's one of the things that DMs will let into their games - including ones who think Pathfinder totally fixed everything or that fighters were just fine and Tome goes and overpowers things.

So it's a huge success in my books: does the job well, and doesn't scare DMs off. Compare with the Fighter or any of the deals-heaps-of-damage kinds, where people line up just to scream that they're overpowered.

What's bad is I know someone who swears the Tome Monk is overpowered because of how he could break it--involving throwing a ton of the Shuriken and the -2 con ability damage.

Time for me to go internet on that with a "LOL." Tell that guy that Con poison is cheap as free and literally anyone can put it on Shuriken and do the same thing.

I have. The whole point was using those spells to increase the number of arms you have.

He's an allright guy--more than allright a lot of times. Just optimizing is something he seems to do instinctively, so as near as I can determined, he doesn't realize that not everyone has a memory as good as his and not everyone wants to have to put together something out of a dozen books to be viable.

His answer to "Races of War" is "Tome of Battle does this, but more gracefully!" and I had to explain that learning another brand of "I Can't Believe It's Not Magic" and a complex resource management system for each class in there isn't graceful and still doesn't let me get my thews on like the Barbarian does.

But, I just realized, playing as Shiva the Destroyer would be cool. Aasimar Monk who keeps taking the Extra Arms feat.

Yeah, the Shiva thing would be pretty damn' cool, but being a monk doesn't synergize particularly well with having lots of arms. The most optimal tactic for having 4 arms is probably TWFing with a pair of two handed weapons, either bows or reach weapons. Alternatively, you could play a bitching flask rogue. Epic Multiweapon Fighting makes a good bonus feat. And it's a good explanation for walking around with all that random crap in your hands

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Yeah, the Shiva thing would be pretty damn' cool, but being a monk doesn't synergize particularly well with having lots of arms. The most optimal tactic for having 4 arms is probably TWFing with a pair of two handed weapons, either bows or reach weapons. Alternatively, you could play a bitching flask rogue. Epic Multiweapon Fighting makes a good bonus feat. And it's a good explanation for walking around with all that random crap in your hands

But someone with six or eight arms who throws around crazy effects and shouts names like "THREEFOLD DANCE OF DOOM" is definitely Shiva. That works for me.

Could seriously just do Combat TWF feat (Renamed Multiweapon Fighting) and have one weapon in each hand except for the Slam Attack hand(s). AC bonus, plenty of weapon attacks, and that basic Monk Fighting Style to let effects carry over to weapon attacks.

Edit: It would also work well with my old Insightful Strikers build. Whore Wisdom out and Shiva would be worthy of the terror she'd generate.

Yeesh, I might write this up as some level 20 something-or-other. Insightful Strike, TWF (Or should I say MWF) and Extra Arms every time it's available.

Fair enough. You don't actually have to use a hand to slam attack, and Shiva is clearly preparing to kick somebody in the face:


Two Weapon Fighting (the feat) doesn't interface directly with multi-weapon fighting, so you'd probably need both.

Actually, a boneblade reaper would make for an absolutely magnificent Shiva.

The Monk's Fighting styles have it covered, too.

There's one that makes people Will Save or be panicked

There's the Disintegrate one

One which does 5d6 Sonic to all within a certain radius

And Fighting Styles to keep people from Teleporting and so on.

I'm still sticking with just one feat to let someone effectively use all those arms, for the same reason the Tome TWF feat is a self-contained package: You shouldn't have to spend a feat to make your other feat work.

So, I'm saying that if you take Two-Weapon Fighting, and then get Extra Arms, it's now Multi-Weapon Fighting and you get a heartfelt "Merry Christmas".

Edit: That picture is Win. Definitely going to be used on the finished product. Along with "She's clearly a Monk because she's going to kick a fool in the face"

The Boneblade Shiva is a bit awkward. This is the best I could manage: Straight-up monk probably is the best bet. Don't forget that there are plenty of styles that aren't attack-based anyway.

I'm going to go straight Monk.

Feats so far are:

Insightful Strike
TWF
At least 2 Extra Arms feats. Maybe 3.

And then two or three open feat slots (depending on the Extra Arms)--Great Fortitude, Elusive Target, Combat School, or Danger Sense.

At level 20, I can get a +15 Wisdom modifier.

Which, as per Insightful Strike(r) and Monk, adds to

Attack rolls, enhancement bonus to weapons (so to damage once and to attack rolls AGAIN), Dodge bonus to AC, Shield Bonus to AC (Wis +2, actually), DCs of Fighting Styles, Reflex Saves and possibly a couple other things I can't be buggered to think of right now.

Might as well take Combat School for being able to take 10 on attack rolls and therefore whore out for Power Attack. And it'd actually fit Shiva--she's supposed to know exactly what she's doing and exists for this purpose.

Dang, I love it when it all comes together.

If you're going to be attack spamming for Con Damage, my suggestion is Subtle Cut.

-Username17

Frank, I made a character that did that once.

Dipped monk, took "Con damage" + "Stacks with Your Weapons" fighting Style, and had Subtle Cut. Dealing 3 Con damage per hit. TWF and Hordebreaker were thrown in to give more chances to stack up Con loss on targets. The character did shit-all damage per hit, but made up for it by being able to take down living targets in a high level game.

Stuff like UD/Constructs would obviously give him more of a pain though.

FrankTrollman wrote:If you're going to be attack spamming for Con Damage, my suggestion is Subtle Cut.

-Username17

I was thinking about it. The attack spam for Con wasn't really my thing, though. I'd really just take Subtle Cut for the extra point of damage (although the movement-slowing is good with Insightful Strike mega-enhancement), and it's not especially thematically appropriate. Shiva doesn't incapacitate you, she unmakes your punk ass.

So, just need a stat array by now.

Equipment's easy enough.

1 Wis-increasing item

1 Save-boosting item that may do other stuff

1 set of magic clothes with an armor enhancement

1 (Possibly) Con-increasing item.

Any suggestions for appropriate high-level magic items?

This build is sort of nice because it doesn't really need any specific weapons...

FrankTrollman wrote:If you're going to be attack spamming for Con Damage, my suggestion is Subtle Cut.

-Username17

Is this an 'official clarification' that Subtle Cut deals constitution damage rather than causing the BoG wounding effect?

Did a little research.

The goddess I'm thinking of is Kali.

Also, looks like she'll have an AC of 82.

10 (Base)
+21 (Armored in Life + Enhancement bonus from the Magic Clothes)
+7 (Magic Clothes)
+17 (Shield bonus from MWF)
+15 (Dodge bonus)
+5 (Deflection bonus, either from Magic clothes or whatever else)
+7 (Natural Armor).

And if Kali has that basic Fighting Style which does +4 to AC and Saves...yeah.

I remember Armored in Life can stack with things the Monk is proficient in. And it turns out AiL gets the enhancement bonus armor does, as well.

Yeesh.

I found a stat array from Dungeon Crusade (The Siege one), so that's settled.

Just, with three Extra Arms feats, the attack spread is best described as...

+50 x4, +45 x12.

Plus any modifiers from charging and Combat School and whatever else.

Might need a little help with fighting styles and getting them sorted.

The definites are:

Use weapons to do Slam effects

Save or be panicked

Disintegrate

Sonic Damage

Teleport lock

Any suggestions for extras?

Maxus wrote:Also, looks like she'll have an AC of 82.

10 (Base)
+21 (Armored in Life + Enhancement bonus from the Magic Clothes)
+7 (Magic Clothes)
+17 (Shield bonus from MWF)
+15 (Dodge bonus)
+5 (Deflection bonus, either from Magic clothes or whatever else)
+7 (Natural Armor).

Magic Clothes only contributes its enhancement bonus, so the AC is at least 7 too high. That shield bonus is +2 not +17 because the text of the two abilities you have stacked are:

Insightful Strike wrote:+16: Any Melee attack you make is considered to be made with a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus equal to your Wisdom Modifier (if positive).

And:

TWF wrote:+6: You gain a +2 Shield Bonus to your armor class when fighting with two weapons and not flat footed.

So you don't get the phantom enhancement bonuses on your weapons to the phantom shield bonus from your weapons.
Magic Clothes have a max dex of 9, so any wisdom in excess of that might or might not add to your AC. I would generally say not, because it replaces dex.

Akula wrote:Magic Clothes only contributes its enhancement bonus, so the AC is at least 7 too high.

Magic clothing gives a +5 deflection bonus to AC. I assume he's treating it as a scaling bonus, which probably isn't correct (because it's already scaled by Diplomacy).

Akula wrote: That shield bonus is +2 not +17 because the text of the two abilities you have stacked are:

Insightful Strike wrote:+16: Any Melee attack you make is considered to be made with a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus equal to your Wisdom Modifier (if positive).

And:

TWF wrote:+6: You gain a +2 Shield Bonus to your armor class when fighting with two weapons and not flat footed.

So you don't get the phantom enhancement bonuses on your weapons to the phantom shield bonus from your weapons.

It's the BAB 16 ability of TWFing.

Akula wrote:Magic Clothes have a max dex of 9, so any wisdom in excess of that might or might not add to your AC. I would generally say not, because it replaces dex.

The MDB is still in effect, but it's increased by half her BAB, for a total of 19.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Magic clothing gives a +5 deflection bonus to AC. I assume he's treating it as a scaling bonus, which probably isn't correct (because it's already scaled by Diplomacy).

Check the total again and you will see the deflection bonus counted elsewhere.

It's the BAB 16 ability of TWFing.

Still doesn't work because because the +16 Insightful strike ability doesn't make your weapons actually magical. I suppose it could apply while attacking.

The MDB is still in effect, but it's increased by half her BAB, for a total of 19.

Yup, that's me being wrong.

Maxus wrote:I remember Armored in Life can stack with things the Monk is proficient in. And it turns out AiL gets the enhancement bonus armor does, as well.

Yeesh.

I assume you are referring to this passage:

Tome wrote:If the Monk wears armor which he is proficient in (for example: normal clothing) that has an enhancement bonus, that enhancement bonus applies to his Armored in Life Armor Bonus.

I took this to mean that it gets the same benefits as the armoured in life bonus, i.e. it counts against Touch and Incorporeal Touch attacks, not that it was doubled. Its says it is applied, not applied again, therefore I assumed it meant applied to the armoured in life bonus instead of the normal armour.

Maxus wrote:+7 (Magic Clothes)

Magic clothing gives a base +2 AC, with a scaling BoG bonus at level 20 that would increase to +9 wouldn't it?

Maxus wrote:+5 (Deflection bonus, either from Magic clothes or whatever else)

The +8 skill bonus of Magic Clothing is a +2 Deflection bonus, and the +18 skill bonus is +5 Deflection bonus. Seeing as you don't lose earlier abilities I would assume this would be a +7 Deflection bonus.

Maxus wrote:+17 (Shield bonus from MWF)

I couldn't find the part in Insightful Strike or Monk Class powers that added Wis to Shield AC? Are you assuming your Insightful Strike makes your weapons +15, because thats not how it is written:

Insightful Strike Feat wrote:+16: Any Melee attack you make is considered to be made with a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus equal to your Wisdom Modifier (if positive).

This only happens when you make an attack. It does not affect the actual enhancement bonus of the weapons.

edit: Ninja'd. And Ninja'd hard.

The +17shield is from the TWF +16, which, as I said earlier I was using as Multiweapon Fighting.

And...Shit. Insightful Strike +16 does appear to function as you say in conjunction with TWF +16.

So, that's a chunk off the Shield AC.

And, true enough. Still, the basic idea's working. Kali will have to be content with an AC bonus in the 50's or 60's. Poor, poor her.

It's still kicking ass offensively.

And, yes, welcome to seeing how I build a character. I get the abilities and feats and equipment picked...And then run through the numbers several times to make sure all applicable bonuses are applied in the right places and all the math adds like it's supposed to.

My fault on the split; I didn't want this idea getting lost in the future, so splitting it off into it's own thread will allow the Search function to have a title link to look for.

My own rough ideas for this build:

Shiva
"Rise above yourself"

Aasimar

Monk

1 [Danger Sense]
2
3 [Insightful Strike]
4
5
6 [Extra Arms]
7
8
9 [Multi-Weapon Fighting]
10
11
12 []
13
14
15 []
16



Because really... by level 20, you already are gods. Shiva is seriously a 16-20th level character.

Maxus wrote:Did a little research.

The goddess I'm thinking of is Kali.

Yeah... Shiva is a dude...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva

PhaedrusXY wrote:

Maxus wrote:Did a little research.

The goddess I'm thinking of is Kali.

Yeah... Shiva is a dude...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva

I caught that after learning a bit more about the mythology.

Also, looks like...

AC of 60.

And I flubbed the attack sequence. It should be 24 attacks, it seems. That seems like the sort of thing which could get out of hand...

.....

very punny Max. Very funny.

I don't see why you're surprised though.

Also, AC 60 means not much if you're rolling with total concealment, and partial concealment. 50% and 20% miss chance stacking on top of 60 AC doesn't hurt.

Judging__Eagle wrote:.....

very punny Max. Very funny.

Glad you like it.

I figured out the main Fighting style options that really fit the character...

Master Fighting Style effects arree...

-Vile damage
-Save or be panicked
-5d6 Sonic damage on a target (twenty-four attacks on the ground

And the main Grandmaster abilities arre...

-Disintegrate
-Teleport Lock
-Something else

And the basic fighting style abilities are a grab-bag of useful stuff, such as the save/AC boost, ignore DR/Hardness, speed boost, and so on.

That many attacks might be a good indication that Two Weapon Fighting shouldn't be directly translated into multiweapon fighting.

Also, Shiva isn't a dude, he's a god. Which means that sometimes he's a chick. Or at least half-female.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Also, Shiva isn't a dude, he's a god. Which means that sometimes he's a chick. Or at least half-female.

It seems the mythology is pretty clear on that. Shiva is a god and ruler of the others, and Kali is an aspect/form of his wife who shows up when faces need to be stabbed.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:That many attacks might be a good indication that Two Weapon Fighting shouldn't be directly translated into multiweapon fighting.
.

Nope, that's why Shiva specifically has Multi-Weapon Fighting, not TWF.